14. Increased Tensions with Unresolved 9/11 Issues

Several contentious issues still plague the US government and their version of the events of September 11, 2001. Those in political power along with media elites would like to see the ongoing grassroots debates surrounding unanswered 9/11 questions and discrepancies disappear, despite the mountains of evidence that suggest that American citizens were told little about the truth of the biggest single-day attack on their homeland in history. Nearly ten years after the events, many unanswered questions still exist: How did Building 7 fall? What caused the destruction of the twin towers? Where is Osama bin Laden? Are people that question the official story of 9/11 dangerous conspiracy theorists?

Student Researchers:

  • Mike Smith, Nolan Higdon, and Sy Cowie (Diablo Valley College)
  • Mikey Hemkens, Ryan Huffman, and Colin Doran (DePauw University)
  • Greg Bernardi (Sonoma State University)

Faculty Evaluators:

  • Mickey Huff (Diablo Valley College)
  • Andrea Sununu and Kevin Howley (DePauw University)
  • Rick Luttmann and Peter Phillips (Sonoma State University)

The academics and intellectuals who have tried to answer these questions have been ignored or derided by corporate mainstream (and even some progressive leftist) media, political pundits, and government officials who clearly intend to silence the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement, or anyone who questions the officially sanctioned government stance on the matter. However, the questions will not go away and increasingly beg for answers.

As of spring 2010, over 1,200 architects and engineers are calling for a new investigation into the events of 9/11. These building professionals and academics are motivated by the fact that the 9/11 Commission Report has been proven erroneous on multiple counts, scientific explanations have been flawed and contradictory, and the American people deserve a more fact-based explanation.

At the same time, new evidence of explosives that can be used in controlled demolition has been found in the dust traces of the World Trade Center (WTC) towers and Building 7 of the WTC complex. After careful examination of the official story about 9/11 (in which the commission never even mentioned Building 7), along with the forensic data omitted from official reports, these professionals have concluded that a new independent and transparent investigation into these massive and mysterious structural failures is needed.

Richard Gage, a San Francisco–based architect and founder of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, states, “The official Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and National Institute of Standards and Technologies (NIST) reports provide insufficient and fraudulent accounts of the circumstances of the towers’ destruction.” Gage, along with other architects and engineers, attacked NIST’s first reports such that NIST eventually changed their conclusions, addressed new evidence, and released a new draft report in 2008. In the thirty days after the 2008 draft report was released, NIST took public questions on the report. Gage’s group sent a letter that covered myriad inconsistencies and omissions in the 2008 report. However, the final report released later in 2008 addressed almost none of the concerns raised. The scientific method was not adhered to in this study.

Gage and Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth’s actions pushed NIST to recognize that Building 7, a forty-seven-story skyscraper that was not hit by an aircraft, did come down at free fall acceleration for more than one hundred feet. An explanation as to how or why it fell at free fall speed was not provided by NIST. NIST continues to state that looking at the thermitic materials found at Ground Zero noted in the demolition theory “would not necessarily have been conclusive.” Despite their own claim that evidence of demolition is inconclusive, they decided not to test or address it at all, as if this could not and/or did not happen (see chapter 7 of this book for more details). Again, the scientific method was not fully followed by government agencies.

In other 9/11 related matters, there is the ongoing mystery regarding the whereabouts of the alleged perpetrator, Osama bin Laden. Even though bin Laden did not take credit for the incident (he in fact claimed the contrary, nor is the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) holding him as a suspect in those crimes due to lack of evidence) government officials of both parties regularly refer to bin Laden as the one responsible for the 9/11 attacks (see story #16 in Censored 2008).

Furthermore, Dr. David Ray Griffin, a former professor at California’s Claremont School of Theology and author of numerous books on 9/11 issues, suggests that Osama bin Laden has been dead for nearly nine years. He argues that bin Laden died on December 13, 2001, of kidney failure or a kidney-related illness. There are records of bin Laden being treated in an American hospital in Dubai for a urinary infection, often linked with kidney disease, and a related order for a mobile dialysis machine, essential to his survival, that was shipped to Afghanistan. Griffin, along with doctors that he cites, says it would be impossible for bin Laden to survive in a cave with that machine for any substantial period of time. Griffin goes on to note that the US and British governments are aware of bin Laden’s death, and have been covering it up to continue the war on terror. (See Griffin’s book on the subject, Osama bin Laden: Dead or Alive?).

In other ongoing tension concerning 9/11 on the home front, President Obama’s appointee to head the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), Harvard law professor Cass Sunstein, claims that the United States government should infiltrate and discredit activist groups.

Sunstein’s call to discredit groups includes those who challenge the official views of the 9/11 attacks, the so-called 9/11 ‘truthers.’ Sunstein acknowledges that the US government has been involved in conspiracies in the past, but he confidently believes that this is no longer a problem. (See the Truth Emergency section of this volume for more on this issue, especially chapter 6.) He claims that groups that question the events of 9/11 are dangerous and could lead some people to violence (while presenting no concrete evidence to prove this).

Sunstein maintains that refuting these groups in public is not productive. He suggests that the most effective method of refute is to infiltrate and cogitatively discredit their internal sources. Sunstein is essentially calling for a return of the Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO) from the cold war days when agents of the US government covertly infiltrated antiwar and civil rights groups with the intent to disrupt and discredit their activities—provoking violence or planning illegal acts themselves in order to bring groups up on criminal charges.

Sunstein’s call for infiltration of private citizen groups plays to the very concerns of many 9/11 activists—concerns that they may be targeted or infiltrated, tried on some trumped up terrorist or criminal charges, and then may not get a fair public hearing. (For more on this, see story #6 in Censored 2009, and story #20 in Censored 2008.)

Such a climate of fear and intimidation does not bode well for First Amendment rights, nor for academic freedom in the US, let alone the possibility of discovering the truth about what really happened on September 11.

Update by Shawn Hamilton

Over one thousand architects and engineers have signed a petition to reinvestigate the 9/11 destruction.

When I went to San Francisco to cover the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911Truth) press conference, I didn’t tell the news department with which I am most closely allied; I was afraid I’d be told not to do the story. This may not surprise anyone considering mainstream media’s deafening silence on 9/11 issues, but this wasn’t an organ of mainstream media; it was an alternative radio station founded on principles that encourage coverage of underreported stories. To be fair, no news director said I couldn’t cover the story, and the story ran that weekend. The point is that I had felt constrained by the prevailing atmosphere of suspicion and fear surrounding media reception of 9/11 topics generally—including at this “progressive” station where people are sharply divided on the issue. I’ve never seen such general weirdness surrounding media coverage of an issue except for the Kennedy assassination. In the 1970s people mocked those few who suggested Lee Harvey Oswald didn’t act alone, branding them “conspiracy nuts,” just as 9/11 activists now are labeled “truthers,” which sounds like “flat earthers.” Some of these activists have embraced the “truther” tag, but I suggest they should refrain. The term is not meant to be a compliment.

I asked theologian David Ray Griffin, who spoke at the conference, why he thought the media was acting so bizarrely towards 9/11 issues. Griffin pointed out how the terms “conspiracy theory” and “conspiracy theorist” are manipulated to make reporters fear losing their reputations and jobs. “You know how it works. Everybody in the media knows how it works,” he said. “Nobody has to be explicitly threatened; they just know the rules.”

The press conference was a newsworthy story whether or not anything the group claims is true. It’s a valid story because so many citizens are questioning the official explanations for the tragedy of September 11, 2001. The fact that over a thousand licensed architects and engineers are demanding a new investigation increases that relevance. If what they say is even partly true, the implications are profound, but either way, there’s a legitimate story. I don’t expect news agencies to endorse the views of groups like AE911Truth; that’s not their proper role. I do expect them not to run for cover when they hear those unsettling words: “9/11.” Democracy is not served by reporters fearing to cover sensitive stories.

As of summer 2010, AE911Truth (ae911truth.org) has gotten more than 1,200 building professionals to sign its petition to Congress demanding a truly independent investigation, and a new group has formed called Firefighters for 9-11 Truth (firefightersfor911truth.org) that challenges official reports and public misconceptions of what occurred on September 11. A group called New York City Coalition for Accountability Now (nyccan.org) is attempting to convince the New York City Council to investigate the anomalous circumstances surrounding the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 (ae911truth.org/index.php/news/41-articles/286-nyccan-ae911truth-ask-ny-city-council.html). All the Web sites I’ve mentioned have links to some of the more credible 9/11 Web sites. The AE911Truth links page is a good place to start. I will be following related issues on this Web site as well: examiner.com/x-36199-Conspiracy-Examiner. My email address is lesseroftwoevils@rocketmail.com.

Update by Daniel Tencer

In May 2010, the New York Times Magazine ran a comprehensive profile of Cass Sunstein, the first such profile to be found in the mainstream media since the law professor took over as head of the White House’s Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA). The article’s title—“Cass Sunstein Wants to Nudge Us”—is an understatement given the views Sunstein has expressed over the years, but it at least heads in the right thematic direction: that much of Sunstein’s academic writing has been focused on social control and government control over information.

Not surprisingly, the article treated Sunstein with kid gloves and largely glossed over the more controversial elements of his ideas. It focused on him as one of the leading proponents of the concept of “libertarian paternalism,” a burgeoning new field of study that blends behavioral psychology with free-market economics and posits that people can be “nudged” into making the right choices (i.e., the government’s desired choices) not by laws and regulations, but by making the “right” choice seem more psychologically appealing.

Writing at the Huffington Post, Russ Baker criticized the New York Times for “burying” Sunstein’s more controversial assertions thirty-five paragraphs into the story, where we are finally told that he advocated for the “cognitive infiltration” of conspiracy theory groups. The Times then quotes Sunstein suggesting that, as a government official, he would not execute the more radical or experimental elements of his academic ideas. But, as Baker points out, that comment was made in the fall of 2009—before Sunstein’s paper on conspiracy theories came to light in the media. What appears in the Times to be Sunstein backing off his more controversial ideas is, in actuality, no such thing.

Understanding Cass Sunstein and his effect on government and society is made difficult by two things. The first is that he is a political chimera who has supporters and detractors on both sides of the political spectrum. Among conservative critics, the populists have come out against him, while the intellectuals appear to have thrown their weight behind him. Even as Glenn Beck declared Sunstein to be “more powerful than the Fed” and desirous of “controlling your every move,” columnist George F. Will declared that his ideas would lead to better, smaller government and would “have the additional virtue of annoying those busybody, nanny-state liberals.” In the UK, Sunstein’s works are “required reading for aspiring Conservative MPs,” reports the Daily Telegraph.

The second element making it difficult to understand Sunstein is that his position inside the government deals primarily with dry, bureaucratic issues that fail to capture the imaginations of either the mainstream press or the alternative media. As head of OIRA, Sunstein is responsible for reviewing all new government regulations. Yet thus far his decisions—those that we know of—have been on a small scale and largely technical, such as his call to streamline the process of naming and writing regulations so that citizens have better access to them.

Sunstein did, however, manage to anger environmentalists recently when he blocked a new Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulation that would list coal ash as a dangerous carcinogen. Environmentalists accused him of caving to the coal industry, which doesn’t want to see its coal ash disposal costs rise under the new rule.

So where is Sunstein headed? Is he likely to attempt the sort of information control programs that he has advocated in the past? Even if he does, it’s likely the mainstream media will support at least some of his efforts to push the political debate towards an “acceptable” center. In a 2009 New Yorker review of his book On Rumors, Sunstein is given credit for predicting the circumstances that would lead to the rise of Internet rumors such as the “birther” claim that President Obama wasn’t born in the US, and the “death panel” allegation about health care reform. He is then cast as the hero fighting against these trends. Given the existing precedent, it’s likely that any attempt Sunstein makes at shaping the content of public information will likely find a positive hearing in the old guard media.

Sources:

PR News Wire, “1,000 Architects & Engineers Call for New 9/11 Investigation: Cite Evidence of Explosive Demolition at Three World Trade Center Towers,” February 19, 2009, http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/1000-architects—engineers-call-for-new-911-investigation-84768402.html.

Shawn Hamilton, “Over 1,000 Architects and Engineers Have Signed Petition to Reinvestigate 9-11 Destruction,” Examiner.com, February 23, 2010, http://www.examiner.com/x-36199-Conspiracy-Examiner.

Architects & Engineers for 911 Truth, “1,000+ Architects & Engineers Officially Demand New 9/11 Investigation,” Infowars.com, January 18, 2010, http://www.infowars.com/1000-architects-engineers-officially-demand-new-911-investigation.

Global Research, “1,000 Architects & Engineers Call for a Real 9/11 Investigation,” January 25, 2010, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17507.

Sue Reid, “Has Osama bin Laden Been Dead for Seven Years—And Are the US and Britain Covering It Up to Continue War on Terror?” Daily Mail (UK), September 1, 2009, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1212851/Has-Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-seven-years—U-S-Britain-covering-continue-war-terror.html.

Daniel Tencer, “Obama Staffer Wants ‘Cognitive Infiltration’ of 9/11 Conspiracy Groups,” RawStory, January 13, 2010, http://rawstory.com/2010/01/obama-staffer-infiltration-911-groups.

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  • researchALLwars

    JTK’s obvious goal: To smear.

    The collective goal of EVERYONE ELSE: To inform.

    : )

  • researchALLwars

    TruthStorm, that was an unbelievable set of quotes from our great “leaders” of the recent past. Excellent compilation my friend. If THAT doesn’t give you an idea of what’s up- then nothing will, really.

    If you want to know about the ancient roots of this sprawling death tree- the lectures of a man named Jordan Maxwell will get you started.

    To the youtubes!!

  • JTK

    @researchALLwars

    You aren’t making sense. Why should anyone have to watch hours of video and pay money for books and go through the endless hours of trying to find the sources of information in both books and video in order to confirm something someone else is claiming? The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim. Everyone knows this, don’t bother trying to put the responsibility on me. If you can cite a source, cite it. If you can’t then you should just admit it. No shifting the responsibility.

    The conspiracy MUST be vast, why else would every firefighter who was in or near building 7 and lost friends and family that day be hiding the fact that the buildings were destroyed by explosives? Your claims don’t make any sense.

    I won’t be watching any of your unsourced and unreliable videos. That is not my responsibility. If you want to back up your crazy claims then do so. No more games, no cowardly shifting of responsibility. If you really believe these conspiracy theories then you must be capable of citing some sources for at least a few of your beliefs. If you can’t then that says a great deal about how poorly thought out your beliefs are.

    The ball is in your court. Back up your claims or admit that you cannot.

    PS. The truth is not misinformation. If you can give an example of things I have said that are untrue then please do so. The fact that you haven’t is a likely sign that you cannot and are merely trying to hide that fact.

  • JTK

    @TruthStorm

    I have asked you for sources, you refuse and put the responsibility on me to look up your sources and prove your claims. I hate to be the one to break it to you but that just ain’t how it works. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. You make a claim, you back it up. By refusing you show that you can’t prove your claims and probably can’t even justify them rationally. Children in grade school could see through your bull.

    Cite your sources, or run away again. Anyone who has spent time having discussions on the internet has seen people who play the game your way. Be they creationists or trolls, they always refuse to back up their story. You are just another liar. If you were telling the truth, even the truth as you see it, then you could surely have provided a source. HTML? Text file? A hyperlink? An honest person would have provided something. Only a liar would act like you are acting. Show some integrity. Back up your claims or back away from them.

    Welcome to the real world, the battleground of ideas. The winner is the person who can prove their claims, the loser is the one who gets caught out like you.

    Prove me wrong. Cite your sources.

    I think you are a liar. You lie about being able to back up your claims. Prove me wrong, use actual sources, provide the links. If you can’t, I win by default.

  • JTK

    Let’s see if I can give you truthers a hypothetical so you can get a better grip on reality.

    Imagine are two truthers. Both believe 9/11 was a conspiracy. One believes in science, determines that the structural steel was weakened by fire and the buildings collapsed due to the collision and the subsequent fire, but still could believe there was a conspiracy to cause or allow the planes to impace the buildings. No laws of physics have to be violated to believe that. That person is a rational conspiracy theorist. Evidence would sway him. His opinions fit reality as well as he understand it.

    The other believes in the conspiracy, regardless of facts. No amount of information on the realities of structural steel would change his mind because he did not arrive at his opinions through rational thought but by faith. It becomes a religion for that kind of irrational truther. He finds himself having to deny scientific fact in order to defend his conspiracy theory. That is a sign of insanity, in case you aren’t aware.

    Believe in a conspiracy if you wish, but don’t make claims that contradict scientific fact. Don’t claim steel doesn’t get weakened by heat when you can and have been proven wrong on that point. Once someone goes from thinking their conspiracy theory through rationally to just taking things on faith they have lost touch with reality.

    If there was a conspiracy to bring down the twin towers then the evidence will support that. If the evidence contradicts one or more of the claims in any given conspiracy theory then that theory must be altered. A rational person would simply withdraw that claim from their theory while an irrational one would have to attack the messenger that informed them of the realities of structural steel.

    Like you two, TruthStorm and whatsisface. Both of you are irrational and take your conspiracy theory on faith. Evidence does not sway you, scientific fact does not change your opinion. To you, being a truther is exactly like religious faith.

    Both of you need to smarten up. Either make your conspiracy theory into something that fits the laws of physics etc or give up any chance of convincing rational people of anything. If you take a conspiracy theory on religious faith then you are just a like street corner preacher, standing on a soap box muttering about the end of days.

    I hope at least one of you has the guts to admit I am right. I can’t imagine anyone ready this comment and not getting the message. Lets see you admit it.

  • Chris

    JTK, the same holds true for any people who believe in the official conspiracy theory (that Al Qaeda alone planned and carried out the attacks on Sept. 11 and the building were brought down by the impact and fire of the airplanes). If you are confronted with multiple scientific facts that discount your official theory then, “that theory must be altered. A rational person would simply withdraw that claim from their theory while an irrational one would have to attack the messenger that informed them of the realities of structural steel.”

    Well to start you off you should take a look at this peer reviewed chemistry journal here is the link: http://www.bentham.org/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

    TFK, if you hold yourself to your own standards then I think you might find the, “insane…street corner preacher,” you are so vehemently opposed to.

  • JTK

    Your lies are tired and old. Repeating them won’t change anything. You aren’t rational, you think like a creationist.

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/12/why_i_dont_debate_creationists.php

    There is no point trying to have a rational discussion with someone who is irrational. Please take your meds.

  • JTK

    @Chris

    You don’t have actual scientific facts. The report on ‘active thermitic material’ is widely disregarded in the scientific community. The editor of the journal resigned in disgrace for allowing that horribly flawed article to be published on her watch. It was not peer reviewed despite Jones’ claims to the contrary. I hope you understand that what you have is in no way a scientific fact because it is unnaccepted by the scientific community. The experiment has not been replicated. The experiment contradicts accepted science. The experiment refers to something (active thermitic material) that science does not acknowledge the existence of. The author has been caught using flawed science in the past and reprimanded for it, even losing his job. Jones does have one thing going for him. Of those involved in the creation of Scholars for 9/11 Truth he stood up to those in charge who insisted that exotic weaponry was used to bring down the towers. AKA laser beams.

    Those are the people at Scholars for 9/11 Truth. Laser beams brought down the twin towers!

    Also, if it the thermitic material article was true then why aren’t the families of the victims using it in court? You know why… because it won’t stand up in court. It isn’t replicable, it isn’t accepted science. If true it would be a constant news item involving courts worldwide suing the government or the owners of the building. Is that happening? How do you explain that lack of action? Do you have to resort to claiming that all of the worlds lawyers are part of a conspiracy? Now that you have been made aware of problems with that article I hope you look deeper.

    If you agree with the properties of structural steel Chris, please say so. Rational people have no trouble admitting that physics is real. I don’t see you taking any firm position so it is difficult to know if you are one of the crazy preacher kind like the other two or if you accept actual science.

    The amount of science around the properties of steel is immense. If you disagree with that science Chris you will have to say so. Take a position so that we can have an actual discussion. Like creationists, truthers are slippery. It is hard to nail them down to a firm claim. Some here have made claims about steel and I shot them down firmly and convincingly with science. Can you accept that fire can and has destroyed steel frame structures? Truther websites deny this, actual fact supports it.

    No religious thinking. No games, no changing the subject, no refusing to concede a point as firmly proven as the properties of structural steel.

    I hold myself to very high standards, Chris. Lets see you do the same.

  • JTK

    PS. Jones tried to use archeology to prove the book of Mormon.

    Do you really want him to be a key source in your conspiracy theory?

  • Mojo

    JTK wrote “Those are the people at Scholars for 9/11 Truth. Laser beams brought down the twin towers!”

    That’s why Jones left Scholars for 911 Truth, because it became infected with people (probably govt. agents) who adhered to wingnut theories rather than using the scientific method.

    Having only been on this forum 15 minutes it is clear to me that you, one “JTK,” are only about smearing. How much is the CIA paying you? How much did you sell your soul for?

  • JTK

    Yet another example of how mentally deranged truthers are. Anyone who disagrees, even if they bring actual science, must be part of the conspiracy!

    Please find a psychiatrist, Mojo. Or do you think they are part of the conspiracy too?

    People like that do an even better job of making truthers look bad than I do. Please come back and make a fool of yourself again.

  • http://n/a Alan

    As an outside observer who does not accept the O.C.T. but also has a very hard time accepting most Alternative C.T.s simply because of the number of people that it would need to involve combined with the human inability to keep secrets, I haven’t seen either JTK or Chris post anything that either supports a complete A.C.T. or anything that can explain Building 7s collapse or the numerous aerodynamic anomalies involved with Hanjour flying a Boeing 757 at approx 450 M.P.H.[which is over a 100 MPH past its Maximum Operating Capacity for that near sea-level altitude] straight into the Pentagon, just maybe 10 feet above the ground, and without causing any ground damage [though his pilot instructors say he couldn't properly control a little Cessna] to impact leaving such a small entrance “wound” while leaving a perfectly round all the way to the C-ring, supposedly caused by the aircraft’s landing gear. I do agree with JTK assertion that the one who is posing the hypothesis is the one who must provide the evidence. Well, the government gave us this Official Story concerning The Pentagon, yet they won’t release anything to back up their story about the Pentagon. If it was the landing gear that made that hole, why wasn’t there a photograph of the landing gear in-sit-u? Or why won’t the government release the numerous videos they have? What possible reasons could they really have for not showing us those videos ten years later, except that they have something to hide? Any answers to that, JTK?

    Recently, the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth discovered, upon analysis of the Flight Data Recorder [aka Black Box] they received via a FOIA request from the National Transportation Safety Board [NTSB] that the sensor on the Pilot’s Cabin-door–which updated every 4 seconds–shows that the Cabin door was in the “closed” position the entire flight. Some have asked why it didn’t show “open” for when the Pilot’s entered, but the FDR doesn’t start recording until the engines are started, and they do not take off if the FDR is not operating correctly. This is a simple binary based system, ie., 0=closed 1=open and unlikely to have malfunctioned, and if it did, the FDR would have shown this. None of the “Official Agencies” have cared to comment on this. But it’s hard to believe Hanjour could have gotten the Cabin door open, subdued the two pilots, who were big guys, gotten them out of their seats and out the door, while managing to get himself inside and close the door behind him, in under 4 seconds. But I do remain open-minded, and that’s essential for all of us! Hell, I want them to prove me wrong when I believe they are lying their a**es off, as they have proven to have done over and over, time and again, as recently revealed with all the documents proving corruption Wiki-leaks has made public. No wonder they want to illegally kill him, or try him under the Espionage Act–but if they do that, are they going to also prosecute the people at The Times and The Guardian and Der Speigal (sic?) who helped him release these papers? I doubt it seriously. But then we’ve proven to be the world’s biggest hypocrites, who prosecute others for War Crimes but have made all U.S. Officials immune to prosecution by anyone. Of course, this won’t last. It would be unconstitutional, of course, but that doesn’t seem to matter. Sometimes I think that what was really destroyed on 9/11 wasn’t 4 buildings, but the Bill of Rights, and, by our reactions, America’s moral “image”, which turned out to be quite “imaginary!” It’s sad, because if it was Islamic Terrorists, then surely they have already won, because they caused us to, as Benjamin Franklin said, “give up essential liberties for temporary safety [or at least the illusion of safety].” Franklin believed those cowardly enough to commit this grave error deserved neither safety nor freedom. But what we should really be worried about is peak-oil, over-population, and the corporatism which has replaced our democratic Republic. But I don’t think anyone actually wants to believe 9/11 was in any way made or even just allowed to happen due to the directions of our government, no matter that our government has a very bad record of doing this; so, I would personally welcome any evidence that conclusively proved what the government told us happened was actually what happened.

  • JTK

    @Alan

    The Maximum Operating Capacity (are you sure the right word is capacity?) is another myth that truthers like to repeat. The is a maximum safe operating speed but that has no connection to the actual maximum speed. It isn’t a physical limit, its like a sign on the side of the road saying not to go faster. The plane does not just stop going faster or fall apart. Now that you are aware of that please don’t repeat the standard truther lie.

    Don’t claim nothing has been released if you haven’t actually looked. I have. Would you like to see some links? Here is the photo of the landing gear. http://layscience.net/node/124?page=1
    Now ask yourself a question… it took me seconds to find this photo. Seconds, not minutes. How is it even remotely possible that all the truther websites haven’t found it? Why weren’t you aware of it? Personally I would take that as a sign that the websites you go to aren’t interested in the truth. How could anyone running such a website, claiming to be interested in the truth, writing books and making videos, not have found that photo? Incompetence or… are they lying in order to make their conspiracy theory look more believable? The videos you mention have been released but you haven’t actually looked for them. I just googled them and look what I found. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vnu_yiUzls
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a64559be87

    If you want more please search. You won’t have any problem at all finding them. Again, ask yourself why truther websites need to avoid those photos and videos.

    How about some eyewitness testimony?
    http://www.911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Crash_Evidence
    http://www.ratical.com/ratville/CAH/F77pentagon.html

    How hard was that? Why do the truther websites claim that videos haven’t been released when they have and I can provide sources? They are lying to you. I proved it. What possible reason could they have to lie to their readers while still claiming to be interested in the truth? Do they maybe have books and videos to sell? Any answers to that, Alan? Please be honest. If my few seconds of googling things has shown you that your sources are leaving out critical information then please say so.

    As for the flight door not being opened, I have heard that the data port wasn’t reading properly. Apparently the same flight data recorder showed that the cockpit door wasn’t opened on a long trans-oceanic flight shortly before 9/11. A flight that long with no food for the pilots, nobody needing to take a leak? Considering that there are recordings of telephone calls from people on the plane at the time I find the data port issue to be in contradiction to the other facts. Were all of those passengers lying as part of a massive spontaneous conspiracy to allow themselves to be killed? You can’t actually believe that can you?

    I’m not sure what you mean about me saying nothing that supports an alternative collapse theory. I have spoken about physics and structural steel and shown that the claims truthers spew are in direct contradiction with science and with the video evidence of the collapse. Countless photos of the Pentagon crash are available on the internet but if you only go to truther websites they won’t show you the ones that don’t support their so-called theory.

    In short, your sources leave out critical information in an attempt to deceive you. You have been fooled by liars who often seem to have books and videos they want to pump. Please make an attempt to verify their claims on your own.

  • JTK

    Often when challenged on matters of fact truthers will go from discussing the things that occured on 9/11 and switch to discussing motives. If this was an episode of a cop drama on television someone would probably use a phrase like “means, motive, and opportunity.” When people are discussing the facts of the collapse it usually revolves around the means. Sometimes they discuss opportunity. When challenged however they tend to retreat from discussing the facts and change the subject to motives, like Alan and others have done above.

    Let me give you a hypothetical example of how disengenuous that is. Lets say that my father died and I inherited his house. That means I had motive to kill my father as I stood to profit from his death. Naturaly that motive would be completely irrelevant if I was across the continent at the time and had neither means nor opportunity. I am sure that even truthers can see that motives are meaningless if there is neither means nor opportunity.

    In the future when discussing the facts of 9/11 do not change the subject to motives. Without means and opportunity, motive is virtually meaningless.

  • http://www.oilempire.us Mark

    There’s good claims and bad claims about 9/11 complicity. Neither the “truth movement” nor the “debunkers” seem interested in that.

    The “debunkers” ignore extremely well documented evidence that at least 15 countries provided warnings, some of them very specific, to the Bush administration. FBI agents tried to stop 9/11. The Defense Intelligence Agency was tracking some of the hijackers before 9/11 (see “Able Danger”). A good place to start on these facts is the amazing compilation at historycommons.org, formerly the Center for Cooperative Research.

    Neither the 9/11 Commission Report nor most of the “Truth Movement” has been interested in the fact the CIA was conducting a “plane into building” exercise at the National Reconnaissance office (in charge of the spy satellites) at the moment 9/11 started. The CIA itself leaked this to the Associated Press in 2002, it was even covered by the SF Chronicle, but there was no followup.

    Mr. Sunstein’s notorious proposal for “cognitive infiltration” has been a reality for a very long time. The perpetrators of these Crimes of State seed false claims into the discussion to discredit citizen concerns — this was done to successfully sabotage public inquiries into the coup against President Kennedy and was done against the 9/11 Truth Movement. Sunstein’s article even mentions how some of us say the “no plane hit Pentagon” claim was government sponsored disinformation but neglected to mention that it was Donald Rumsfeld who was behind it.

    The demolition theories are also an enormous distraction (or worse). The firefighters watched the towers and WTC 7 buckle before they fell down. The collapses of the towers initiated at the points the planes hit the buildings. WTC 7 was not hit by a plane, but it did have a twenty story gash in the south side caused by parts of the collapsing towers smashing into it. By 2 pm that afternoon the fire department reported the building was creaking and would probably fall down.

    It would help if the 9/11 truth movement focused on best evidence such as suppressed warnings and overlapping wargames, but there are too many egos invested in the false claims for that sort of fact checking to happen.

    The three letter agencies will be teaching “no planes” and “demolition” in their propaganda training courses for decades to come as an example of how to get away with monstrous crimes.

  • JTK

    Mark, the debunkers ignore no such things. The awareness of possible attacks at the time is well known and no rational person hides it. If you can find a citation of a debunker denying those published facts, cite your sources. I have yet to hear of anyone denying those facts, truther or debunker. You should at least try to back up those claims, or change your opinions if the facts don’t match. The debunkers are very interested in the good claims since they are only determined to be good claims after rational analysis, which is performed by debunkers and not truthers.

    Truthers lie. Truthers make ridiculous claims about scientific fact and then change the subject when they get challenged. Truthers display clear evidence of a paranoid mindset. Those few truthers who focus on actual evidence get little to no attention because even their claims fall flat when analyzed.

    Many of your other points however sound like more paranoia. The paranoid mindset often results in strange claims. There are people who think that Wikileaks is a government conspiracy to leak its own secrets in order to justify a crackdown. Once people go that far down the rabbit hole there is very little chance that rational thought will ever get them out.

  • Jay

    Be nice to JTK, he’s just earning his pay spreading disinformation and wasting people’s time that might otherwise be spent in activism.

  • JTK

    Congratulations on having the guts to speak up, Jay, while not having the guts to cite any disinformation or any factual error at all.

    Classic! This is what is so great about talking to truthers. They are outstanding at revealing their paranoiad and lying nature.

    Give an example of this disinformation. I know you can’t, I know you either lie or never return. I’ve been through this before with other truthers, birthers, creationists.. they are functionally the same in arguments. When challenged with the facts they are unwilling to admit anything at all and have no choice but to deceive.

    Please come back, Jay. You have such potential to make all truthers look bad.

  • http://www.oilempire.us Mark

    The “no plane hit Pentagon” nonsense was disinformation first disseminated by War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on October 12, 2001. There shouldn’t be any question about his lack of sincerity.

    This sort of fake evidence is similar to false claims inserted into efforts to investigate the removal of President Kennedy from office. A resource that is especially recommended for that is Gaeton Fonzi’s memoire “The Last Investigation. Fonzi was on the staff of the House Select Committee on Assassinations and writes about how the three letter agencies fed the committee disinformation to soak up their time, it had kernels of truth in it but the bits of fact went nowhere and kept them from more productive inquiries. This summary does not do his book the justice it deserves, it’s one of the most important books on the Kennedy assassination, almost as important as James Douglass’s JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters.

    Meanwhile, the fact that numerous US allies gave specific warnings about 9/11, who, what, where, when – is sourced to many mainstream articles but few are interested in connecting the dots to show that the attacks were not a surprise to the White House. That’s a different argument than the Thermite Theory (which I do not believe in) but it has the advantage of solid documentation.

    I’ve love to see a real investigation into why the CIA was conducting a “plane into building” exercise at the National Reconnaissance Office next to Dulles Airport as 9/11 unfolded. Sorry that my “coincidence meter” overloads on this one. This is another fact that got mainstream press coverage yet no mention in the 9/11 Commission Report. It’s much more fun to debunk the “no plane” BS than to demand democratic accountability for suppressed warnings and overlapping wargames.

  • Grant

    Lol, JTK is definately a government stooge. Check out the link to the you tube video with the CGI inserted that he tries to pass of as “evidence”. Hilarious. So completely duped.

    For every 911myths , there is a dozen other interpretations. How about this from your ratical link?

    “# Conclusive proof of what hit the Pentagon is not available due to parking lot videos and materials similar being held secret by the government. Documents need to be released. Similar types of documents are in the hands of the public in New York regarding the WTC towers. We need full disclosure from the FBI.”

    Feel free to release the actual video from various cameras anytime you want, but alas, you know you cant & you know they wont. I dont doubt it was a plane that hit the pentagon, but how it did it, which way it came from & who set it up, you cant prove.

    Most people can believe the possibility of 1 WTC tower collapsing, but not 3. 3 buildings designed to withstand that very type of event. WTC7 not even being directly hit, but a little bit of debris hits it (with less structural damage than say the oklahoma bombing) & a bit of a fire & the whole thing implodes into its footprint? When other buildings can be on fire for days & not collapse? With most of the people from the FBI & IRS just happening to not be there that day? A military excercise on that even the very same day, simulating that very event? Just like the london bombings?

    Hundreds of dodgy trading transactions that day. Missing ( whoops) important records from the FBI & IRS. Passports from the “terrorists” plane survives & is found on the ground when not even a fart from the building is left intact? Why the urge to destroy the evidence of the building so quick? Ive read the 911 myths & the JREF government responses…puhhleeease.

    The NIST report was just a government sham designed to fool people.

    “The conspiracy MUST be vast, why else would every firefighter who was in or near building 7 and lost friends and family that day be hiding the fact that the buildings were destroyed by explosives?”

    What the? How would they even see any explosives? They were concentrating on fighting fires, but many heard explosions & most believe it looked like a CD.

    You already said you wont look at any evidence, so why pretend you would? I know your probably trying to be all patriotic & defend the world against those evil ‘terroists” & provide some sort of reason why the hell you should invade iraq or afghanistan. Oh yeah, I know its the (oil, opium) WMD’s & terroists? Sheeesh there’s a fox news lover born every day isnt there?

  • JTK

    Mark, I believe you are wrong with your claims re who started the no plane hitting the pentagon conspiracy theory. Cite your sources, actual sources (no internet video.)

  • JTK

    Grant! Congratulations on being yet another paranoiac who can’t accept that people with rational and honest questions aren’t part of the massive conspiracy. You reveal a great deal about how screwed up your thinking is. Honest people can accept honest questioning, only those who are aware of how flawed their claims are need to pretend that people who question them are all government tools. CGI inserted? What planet are you from? You don’t think a plane hit the pentagon despite the eyewitness testimony of people who saw it fly overhead? I like your kind of truther because of how ashamed the rational kind of truthers are of you. Please don’t stop with your nuttiness.

    You quoted something but didn’t say who. You say the video from various cameras wasn’t released but I provided a link to it. In other words the evidence contradicts your opinion. You are wrong, I proved you wrong before you spoke. Please smarten up.

    Your claims about wtc7 are also false. I linked photos of how damaged wtc7 was, please do not make claims that disagree with the photographic evidence. Psychologists could tell you a great deal about what kind of mentality would disagree with photographic evidence.

    Your questions about other buildings on fire I have responded too earlier as well. Please try to keep up.

    Who destroyed evidence of the building? Didn’t one of my links go to a direct transcript of a company involved in the recovery and didn’t that transcript completely contradict your opinion?

    You exhibit the classic signs of a sloppy thinker. How would the firefighters NOT have seen huge lines of det cord strung across the floors, as the demolitions experts state would have been the case?

    And here’s the kicker: I did not say I would not look at the evidence. That is a lie. Youtube videos with no citations are not evidence. If you could back up your idiotic claims with actual citations you would have. All truthers run into this problem. Why would anyone who can provide actual citations refuse and require me to watch hours of videos and buy several books? You cannot honestly expect people to do that. Only dishonest people or complete and total fools would believe what you believe. Are you a fool, a liar, or both? I vote fool.

    Your opinions on how I would be ‘all patriotic’ are absolute trash. You know absolutely nothing about me other than that I ask questions that you can’t answer honestly. I don’t watch Fox.

    As usual the truthers come out all guns blazing and wind up getting shot down in flames.

    Have some guts. If you can back up any truther claims with actual citations (once again, that means that youtube videos don’t cut it.) You know that you wouldn’t watch hours of footage if I asked you to yet you expect me to do that if you ask? That makes you not just a fool but also a hypocrite.

    Smarten up. Be more rational. Be more skeptical. Look up the difference between skepticism and cynicism. Your words make it clear that you are paranoid. Either deal with the questions I raise or admit that you can’t.

    Bring it on, truthers. The more of you speak the more nuts all of you appear. Congratulations on that.

  • Grant

    Woooah, ease up killer. Cmon, your getting paid for this sort of crap so lighten up captain red neck.

    Honest people can accept honest questioning? Well why cant you accept any questioning without your rants, rhetoric, CGI, ad hom or lies? If the whole 911 event was so straight forward & easy to explain, then people wouldnt be discussing it by the thousands 10 years later would they? If the NIST report & other bits of evidence were so convincing, then there wouldnt be so much resistance would there? But to scientists, engineers, pilots & other experts as well as on the ground witnesses its not all so plausible the explanation you so willingly accept. Are they all just paranoic people?

    Answer me this, since you are so open to honest questioning. Why are you so determined to defend the official theory? What’s in it for you? What is gained by you converting me to your belief? What is so wrong with another independent enquiry?

    ” CGI inserted? What planet are you from?” . Are you so conned that you think that video is real & then you get worked up because I wont accept it as evidence? The first 2 comments on that video summed up exactly how I felt when i saw it.

    “OMG where have I seen that explosion before….i remember, that looks like the exact same ones i see when I play Twisted Metal 2 for my Playstation” &

    “OMG!

    “A poor video editing job is what hit the Pentagon !!!!!!!!!!!!”

    It’s sad if you really want adults to believe that crap, because even kids dont believe that 1980′s CGI.

    ” You don’t think a plane hit the pentagon despite the eyewitness testimony of people who saw it fly overhead?”

    In all your government spin fervour, you didnt bother to actually read what I said & instead, decided to build a stawman. Its still there for everyone including you to scroll up & see. Here it is again copied & pasted from above capt strawman.

    ” I dont doubt it was a plane that hit the pentagon, but how it did it, which way it came from & who set it up, you cant prove.”

    Care to revise? Or maybe build another strawman or create another red herring?You see, there it is, I believe a plane hit the pentagon. I just dont accept the official story. I accept this version:

    http://pilotsfor911truth.org/pentagon.html

    “You say the video from various cameras wasn’t released but I provided a link to it”

    No, what you have done is been duped & then tried to convince me of your 1980′s CGI.

    “Your claims about wtc7 are also false. I linked photos of how damaged wtc7 was”

    Please point to where. I couldn’t see it & please dont ask me to read through dozens of links. Just the one photo or link that proves it, WT7 on its own thanks.

    “Your questions about other buildings on fire I have responded too earlier as well. Please try to keep up.”

    No you didnt, unless of course I should accept rhetoric as evidence, in which case, I’m sure you will accept mine as evidence.

    ” How would the firefighters NOT have seen huge lines of det cord strung across the floors”

    Building dont have false ceilings anymore? Amazing. Any other red herrings?

    ” If you could back up your idiotic claims with actual citations you would have”

    Wait a sec…you back you claims up with rhetoric, strawmans, red herrings, links that dont work, you tube & blogs & you want me to produce citations? Can you guess what idiot wrote this? : ” (once again, that means that youtube videos don’t cut it.) ” Scroll up & check the name next to the only person that has posted a you tube clip, as I know your memory isn’t good.

    How about we have a fist fight. You fight with your hands & legs tied behind your back & I will use MMA, sound fair?

    “As usual the truthers come out all guns blazing and wind up getting shot down in flames.”

    If that was the case, then the debates would have stopped years ago wouldn’t they? Not good at logic are you? Why are you still trying to defend it after all these years? Can you pass me to your supervisor & we will continue the discussion? Cos son, you fail.

  • JTK

    Again, you are being paranoid. I don’t get paid to say anything. I just happen to know how crazy truther claims are. You haven’t cited a single thing I said that was untrue. You rant and rave and look wacko. You can’t cite any sources for any claims and you know it and instead you just spew off junk. You deny a video is real with a classic “photoshop! I’ve seen a few shops in my day” line of bunk. I can prove where the plane came from and what angle it struck the building at, and my links have shown that. Including eyewitness testimony from people on the street, employees of gas stations, cab drivers… all of that is available. Well, it is for honest people. Here’s that link by the way, the one you will find some childish excuse to pretend are fakes or something. http://www.dalimunthe.com/2010/03/top-ten-photos-911-conspiracy-nuts-hate.html

    You have made it clear that you aren’t a rational person. You don’t accept evidence, you believe those who confront your idiocy are in the pay of some vast conspiracy aka ‘the gubmint.’ You exhibit many signs of paranoia and delusion. Anyone who disagrees must be a plant, any evidence that disagrees with your nuttiness must be fake, and not a single thing will ever change your mind. You are immune to reason. Your beliefs are not based on reason, they are religious in character. No evidence will ever be enough. Trutherism is your god.

    All you have is rants and ravings, the same kind of denial that creationists and birthers trot out.

    Once again, I am glad you spoke up. As usual truthers who try to defend their claims look utterly insane.

  • JTK

    Bring it on truthers. None of you can hide your craziness when you have to deal with open discussion.

  • http://www.oilempire.us Mark

    Cite your sources, actual sources …

    Donald Rumsfeld first floated the “missile” nonsense re: the Pentagon attack in Parade Magazine, in an October 12, 2001 interview. I have links to the source material at

    http://www.oilempire.us/no-plane-timeline.html

    The “no plane” and its variations are 100% BS. Doesn’t mean that those who believe them are not sincere, but it was a slick hoax. Tons of plane debris were picked from the rubble, the passenger bodies were all identified, even the luggage was extracted from the ruins. There is zero doubt that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon.

    There is also zero doubt that the top echelons of the administration knew about 9/11 in advance, they were provided enormous amounts of specific warnings from allied countries, even from within the federal government. Now it’s extremely unlikely every claim for this is true, but it’s even less likely that every claim for foreknowledge is untrue.

    A good place to start about the warnings is the Complete 9/11 Timeline at http://www.historycommons.org

    Most of the people focused on the alleged demolition of the towers and WTC 7 go out of their way to ignore the actual evidence about suppressed warnings. And few of the debunkers ever mention the warnings or the “plane into building” exercise during 9/11. Divide and conquer works well in a polarized society.

  • JTK

    Your source has some issues, and not just that they also discuss JFK and world war 4. They speculate that Rumsfeld was the source of the no-plane hoax, but they provide no evidence. Then later on they state that the no-plane hoax started a week before with a french guy. Have you read your sources? How is it that Rumsfeld started it a week after a french guy did? Overall that source is a good example of a relatively rational trutherism however. The paranoia is still there but at least they accept a great deal of the science.

    Yes, members of the administration were made aware of the possibility of an attack. Enormous amounts? No. Some, yes. But do you really think that those ‘upper echelons’ would allow this to happen? Thousands dead? Do you really think they are sociopaths? How could all of those data analysts who knew those pieces of information not have come forward in the years since? If it was truly known that it would occur, someone well below President would have been the one to know it first. Where is he? Is he a sociopath, did he want thousands to die?
    You think conspiracy is more likely than incompetence or lack of concern? You think that even with people who were there at the time having left politics and written books critical of Bush, those people who allowed thousands to die, those sociopaths are all still working together to keep it secret that it was a nefarious plot? Are you so absolute in your convictions that it could not have been anything other than a conspiracy, allowing zero chance of any other possibility such as incompetence? All of the people involved over all those years, capable of allowing thousands of deaths on 9/11, all sociopaths by necessity. Isn’t it unreasonable, very like religious thinking, to deny even the slightest possibility anything other than their being part of a vast conspiracy?

    I am assuming you have no concerns with what I have said about the properties of steel. It looks like you don’t believe that explosives were used.

    Your willingness to see sociopathy in the behavior of others is a concern however. Often people fear in others what they secretly fear in themselves.

  • JTK

    Truthers, when challenged, often wind up avoiding the topic of what kind of mindset those they are accusing would have had in order to allow this to go ahead.

    By ignoring the fact that they expect countless strangers to be sociopaths they reveal that they see others as sociopaths, which implies that they see sociopathy in themselves. I have enjoyable conversations with Psych professors on that subject now and then.

  • JTK

    Truthers who want to defend their claims in a rigorous manner may be interested in this site:
    http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/the-911-untruth-challenge?id=2684079%3ATopic%3A836585&page=1#comments

    Be prepared to make positive claims and back them up. They don`t tolerate the standard truther evasions.

  • Mike

    This JTK guy’s a nutcase. O.o He believes the 911 Commission. Not evn the 911 Commission themselves believe the offical conspiracy theory they published.

  • rpdiplock

    My Dear … JTK

    Who suggests that only irrational people believe in ‘conspiracies: I would like to preface your suggestions with …

    There are none so blind as those who will not see …

    I’m afraid that you appear to conform with your very own definition of an ‘irrational advocate,’ for the indefensible.

    It might not have occurred to you that most mug-punters, out in the wide world, are only asking for simple evidence, to explain something which is tremendously complex. Samples of such ‘simple’ evidence, could be in the form of … black boxes, fragmentary material of actual aircraft, etc. Simple, plausible evidence.

  • JTK

    Welcome to the fray, rpd. Baseless accusations have no merit. Back up your accusations. If I am conforming to whatever, back it up. Rants and ravings by the deluded are common on conspiracy theorist websites, I’m calling people out when I see irrationality and explaining where it is. If you can justify your words please do. Otherwise you are just a ranting loonie in the wilderness, a streetcorner preacher with no attachment to reality.

    Back up what you say if you think its worth speaking at all.

    I hope you turn out to be as much of a nutcase as the rest of them have. The level of nuttery is just what I expected.

  • JTK

    I refuted your claim Mike. Are you ignoring that? Are you changing the subject? Why would you change the subject unless you felt like I had gotten the better of you?

    You answer none of my questions and respond to none of my points. You only come back with evasions. Once again you have shown how you are incapable of defending your beliefs in a rational way. They are not reasonable, they are religious in nature. You are a true believer, might as well be a creationist.

    Keep it coming, but please have the guts to answer the questions and admit when your claims are refuted. If you perform this badly all the time your self esteem wiill suffer and who knows what the result would be in a person with such a paranoid disposition.

  • Grant

    “Again, you are being paranoid. I don’t get paid to say anything.”

    Ok, well, since you have so conveniently dodged my earlier question & moved onto others like you have derided others for doing, please go back & answer it for me. You seem to be insulting towards people when they dont believe what they are told to believe. Again, I’ll repeat:

    Why are you so determined to defend the official theory? What’s in it for you? What is gained by you converting me to your belief? What is so wrong with another independent enquiry? Why do you desire to supress this?

    “I can prove where the plane came from and what angle it struck the building at, and my links have shown that. Including eyewitness testimony from people on the street, employees of gas stations, cab drivers”

    And I can do the same in reverse,with qualified experts witnessing the plane coming in via a different path & including the cab driver saying it was set up.

    You havn’t proved anything. All you have done is asked us to do what you refused yourself. To click on links & read through volumes of links. You even provided a you tube link, when you yourself said you tube clips dont cut it….when we want to use them. You rant & rave & throw around insults to everyone who wont accept your belief, which shows you are more interested in intimidation & rhetoric than anything else.

    “No. Some, yes. But do you really think that those ‘upper echelons’ would allow this to happen? Thousands dead?”

    Wow, you really are duped. You have a trillion dollar a year military, which employs millions of people, which has flow on effects to millions more. If you stop waging war, you stop the businesses & factories & employment & finaly votes. You needed oil & needed heroin after the Taliban destroyed 90% of the poppy fields, hence, why you invaded iraq & afghanistan & needed an excuse. Funny that. No WMD’s & No Osama & the poppy fields are producing more than they ever have, despite satelittes that can pin point them.

    “those sociopaths are all still working together to keep it secret that it was a nefarious plot?”

    There didn’t need to be that many people in control of the events. 99% of the government including Bush could be entirely left out of the loop & so, when it happened, they all just followed the motions & believed what they were told. So there is no need to lay around in hope that one of these 1000′s of government officials involved will somehow reveal the big one. It only needed to take 10-20 people to set it up. Like the entrance builders to the pyramids, they were probably all killed off.

    “Are you so absolute in your convictions that it could not have been anything other than a conspiracy, allowing zero chance of any other possibility such as incompetence?”

    No, I am open to the posibility that you are right & you very well might be. But after all the years of reading & participating in forums & seeing dozens of cases for evidence put forward, it still doesn’t sit right & there is so many coincidences for that day that makes the whole thing smell fishy.

    “I am assuming you have no concerns with what I have said about the properties of steel”

    Amazingly, all other buildings that have been nearly entirely on fire for days , or planes that have hit buildings or buildings that have had half of them destroyed like oklahoma have not collapsed like 3 in one day on 911.

    “Truthers who want to defend their claims in a rigorous manner may be interested in this site:”

    Would you like me to direct you to several 911 conspiracy sites, where you can contribute & see if they will all come around to your belief with your charm & people skills?

    “They are not reasonable, they are religious in nature. You are a true believer, might as well be a creationist.”

    I’m an atheist & a member of a few skeptic forums, so good luck with that. I debate the creationists also. There is a large amount of faith based belief in your writings, so it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

  • Grant

    By the way, your 10 ten link shows next to nothing about WT7, just some back shots & distance shots. Whoopee. Sooooo excited & defeated.

  • JTK

    Grant! Don’t be ridiculous. What is in it for you defending the truther story? Are you getting paid? Can you see how those questions are an evasion, a way of changing the subject from matters of fact to paranoid accusations?

    Do not claim you can prove the pentagon plane travelled a path other than that which the witnesses agree on. You make that claim and you will not back it up.

    You are utterly and hopelessly paranoid. You believe that a group of people had complete and total control of the truth and killed themselves off in order to keep themselves from revealing themselves.

    Face facts. You make bizarre claims and I am absolutely certain you will never back them up. You will never provide any information showing the pentagon attack occurred in a way that disagrees with the eyewitnesses. I believe that you are lying about having that information.

    Your claims that all other buildings on fire for that duration did not collapse is blatantly false. I have already provided evidence to the contrary. You either ignore it or you are making your lies up as you go along. Check those links. You are wrong on that and it is proven with inescapable facts. Please smarten up.

    Call my bluff. Bring it or be known as a liar. I’ve been through these conversations with liars before and I think its great. By exposing you as paranoid and delusional I expose the truther movement as fueled by delusions and paranoia.

    You may be a member of skeptic forums but you are in no way a skeptic. You are paranoid and your beliefs contradict the facts which I have shown you. A true skeptic will alter his opinions to fit the facts. A cynic will deny those facts in order to keep his opinions.

    No more evasions, no more games. No more lies. My links showed the building 7 itself. Do not lie when anyone reading can click on the link and see your lie for what it is.

    So, to sum up, you are a deluded paranoid lying cynic. Please seek medical attention. If you can back up your lies, please try. I will enjoy seeing you dig yourself deeper into a web of deceit.

    Keep it coming.

  • JTK

    As for truther websites, the pattern is the same there. When challenged to debate the facts they turn to evasions and deception. When challenged on their evasions they, like Grant and the others here, make claims that they cannot back up and then they lie in order to avoid having to back up those claims. I have been to those sites and you know what? They delete these kinds of conversations. They know where they money comes from. They sell ads to other truther sites, they sell books, they sell videos, they push their authors as speakers. When someone comes along and shows the errors of the truther story the sites have a monetary interest in blocking them. I have seen many debunker topics deleted when the truth got inconvenient for truthers. Perhaps you have too? If you care so much about defending trutherism (which, by your own reasoning, implies that you get paid to do so) you must have noticed the disappearance of threads.

    Bring it on, paranoiacs!

    Oh, and I am calling you a liar again Grant. You claim there is a large amount of faith based belief in my writings. I know you are making that up as an evasion and I know you will never back it up no matter how often I challenge you to. I know you are scrambling for any evasion that might make you look lie you haven’t completely failed to defend your truther religion. You will fail at that too.

    Reason doesn’t need lies to defend it, Grant. If you believe in trutherism so strongly you will naturally be able to back up your lies, right?

    Or will you avoid that challenge? I am guessing that most readers here can see right through you. I’m even guessing that if you read your own comments you will see how evasive and deceitful you are. Naturally you won’t admit it due to your cognitive dissonance issues.

  • Grant

    “What is in it for you defending the truther story?”
    The USA has gone to war killing thousands of innocent people on a false flag. Even if the 911 events are as you say, the resulting wars were unjust, unsactioned, has cost & continues to cost thousands of lives. Ok, Ive laid my cards on the table, now please stop avoiding the question, answer now .Why?

    “Do not claim you can prove the pentagon plane travelled a path other than that which the witnesses agree on. You make that claim and you will not back it up.”

    The official flight path does not match the data, it’s only 1 minute long, I’m sure you can bear that.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Q8nSEeUec&feature=player_embedded

    “You will never provide any information showing the pentagon attack occurred in a way that disagrees with the eyewitnesses”

    This whole video is witnesses who don’t agree with the official flight path to the pentagon. Police, workers in the cemetery, navy annex etc.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5FhQc-LJ-o

    If you can’t be bothered looking at any of it, at least look at 1:11:40, where the cab driver from the magic cab , hit by a light pole that was hit by a 400mph plane punches a neat hole through his windscreen & leaves no scratches on his bonnet. Where he admits it was set up.

    “Your claims that all other buildings on fire for that duration did not collapse is blatantly false.”

    Really?

    http://wtc7.net/buildingfires.html

    “My links showed the building 7 itself.”

    From the back. Please show pictures from the front, where it was hit.

    “Or will you avoid that challenge? I am guessing that most readers here can see right through you. I’m even guessing that if you read your own comments you will see how evasive and deceitful you are”

    I’m willing to lay my bets that they think precisely that of you & your hypocrisy.

    Got any more 1980′s CGI? That stuff was cool.

    Yes viewers stay tuned & get your bingo sheets out ready for how many times JTK can say a word featuring the “paranoid” or variations. We had to throw away the ad hom bingo sheet, as too many people were winning.

  • Grant

    The Oklahoma bombing had more structural damage than WT7, yet it remained standing.

    http://www.apfn.org/apfn/murrah.jpg

    Show me WT7 with more damage than that.

    The news reporter announcing WT7 had collapsed………………before it had actually collapsed was gold too.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_aTig6QfQ1iI/R3b1vfpt6uI/AAAAAAAABlM/haGlLh9_7IU/s320/wtc%2B7%2B-jane_standley_wtc-7.jpg

    More buildings that have burned for hours & not collapsed.

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    The FBI & IRS have their offices in a building they decided was so strong & indestructible, that a small chunk out of the fascade & a fire collapsed it….righht.

  • JTK

    Once again Grant you act the hypocrite. I show a video and you make a baseless claim that it was CGI and then you bring out an unsourced video? You expect me to watch and hour and twenty minutes worth of video? No. Bring out your sources. No unsourced junk. If the eyewitnesses supposedly disagree with the flight path, where are they and why aren’t they mentioning it? They would have to be part of the conspiracy, which means you think they are sociopaths as well. Wow, you really are revealing a great deal about your own psychology.

    If you thought this was actual evidence then you would take it to court. The fact that you and the other truthers have not taken this issue to court implies that you don’t actually think it is evidence. Your actions do not match your words. You suspect people of killing thousands and you have evidence to destroy the ‘official’ story and you don’t press charges? You truly are a sociopath.

    Don’t lie about my links either. I gave you a link to top ten photos truthers hate and you ignore it. Do not make claims that contradict the evidence. Once again that makes you appear truly insane. Did you click on the link?

    Here are pentagon eyewitness accounts. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

    Try this one: http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/home

    You, who has no knowledge of structural steel, are going to argue about whether other buildings have collapsed? I already provided a link refuting your crazy claim, but here it is again. I assume you will click it this time? Or are you afraid? There is no need to watch hours of video, just text and links to actual sources. http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

    You are truly nuts. I bring video evidence, you claim CGI and respond with unsourced video… wow.

    The Oklahoma building was a vastly different structure. Why are you comparing apples to oranges? The twin towers were of an unusual design. If you can’t deal with the reality, if you can’t accept that the people who actually build buildings have proof that you are wrong, then please seek psychological help. They would have to all be part of the conspiracy too, which means you are accusing millions of people of being sociopaths.

    Again and again you use evasion and deception. You imply that countless people are sociopaths and that they have all managed to spontaneously join a conspiracy to hide the truth and somehow kept that secret for nine years.

    You are truly insane. No sane person would believe in so many sociopaths.

    No more lies Grant. If you can’t admit that I have shown you photos, if you need to pretend any evidence that contradicts your unsourced videos is CGI or faked in some way, then you are done. You have already lost the argument. Even other truthers would be ashamed of your need to avoid reality.

    Every single point you raised I have dealt with earlier in this very thread. Do your homework.

    So, truthers.. why aren’t you taking this to court? Why aren’t you looking for a district attorney somewhere who happens to be a truther? They must exist. If the evidence is really evidence then you will have no trouble taking it to court. Nobody is stopping you. I provided a link to a web forum where people are discussing this issue with legal rigor. If you have information that is truly convincing, why aren’t people convinced?

    The sloppy thinking and delusions that Grant exhibits are par for the course in truther circles. Lets see you take your accusations to court if you are so convinced that you have important new information implicating a conspiracy.

    Congratulations, truthers. Yet again one of your own has been exposed as a paranoid nutcase who thinks hundreds of thousands to millions of people are sociopaths.

  • JTK

    Grant! In case you feel the need to repeat your lie about a small amount missing from the facade of building 7, I will remind you that I linked to a photo that disproves your claim. Please click on the link and look at the image. Now that you know that you are wrong, admit it. Admit that building 7 took a lot of damage as shown in that photo and others. When nutcases like you make claims that contradict the evidence so obviously, even your fellow truthers will start to question your lies.

  • JTK

    By the way, I have a thought on why truthers don’t take these things to court while still claiming to have vital evidence. They aren’t just liars and hypocrites, they are cowards. They are deathly afraid that looking openly and honestly at the actual evidence will destroy their precious conspiracy theory and take their self esteem along with it.

    Welcome to cognitive dissonance, truthers. Once you start to admit to yourself that you have been lied to by truther websites, that vital information such as the actual photos of the damage to building 7 have been held back by the websites you use as sources, then you will have begun the process of shedding your craziness.

  • Grant

    Again JTK, you evaded the question, despite me answering yours. You are continuously evasive of this & many other questions, but demand yours to be answered & if they arent answered in accordnace to your special filters, then I’m a conspiracy nut, an idiot, paranoic, lies, bizarre. How are people going with JTK’s bingo sheet so far?

    Again, for the 4th time.

    Why are you so determined to defend the official theory? What’s in it for you? What is gained by you converting me to your belief? What is so wrong with another independent enquiry? Why do you desire to supress this 10 years after the event? You really are showing yourself to be a hysterical desperate stooge.

    “Once again Grant you act the hypocrite. I show a video and you make a baseless claim that it was CGI”

    Look, you can believe what ever you want. I’m not stopping you. Santa & the fairies are real too.

    “and then you bring out an unsourced video? ”

    Who cares if it’s unsourced? Who cares if it was grandma or the worlds best investigator? The witnesses & evidence is on there & you choose to ignore it & rant on & create red herrings with the only few things you can argue on.

    “You expect me to watch and hour and twenty minutes worth of video? No”

    JTK, you need to take a breath, wipe the foam & froth from your manic mouth & read precisely what I said & not build strawmans. Scroll up & check what I said….ahh heck, I know you don’t have that ability, so i will paste it here for you again.

    Quote from Grant: “If you can’t be bothered looking at any of it, at least look at 1:11:40, where the cab driver from the magic cab , hit by a light pole that was hit by a 400mph plane punches a neat hole through his windscreen & leaves no scratches on his bonnet. Where he admits it was set up.”

    Quick red herring time & time for you to post on your buddies forums asking for help. In the mean time red herring. Look over there!

    “Bring out your sources. No unsourced junk.”

    Seriously, can you hear yourself? Hypocrite.

    “Don’t lie about my links either. I gave you a link to top ten photos truthers hate and you ignore it. ”

    I havn’t. I’ve commented on them 3 times & will again here. There is NO frontal pictures of WT7 in your links! Am I supposed to wish them there?

    “Here are pentagon eyewitness accounts. http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911_pentagon_eyewitnesses.html

    I have provided you with an hours worth of video, full back to back with witnesses who counter your story & you said you refused to look. What does that say?

    “Try this one: http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/home

    Oh goodie, a site that not only says no other building has been hit before , but there was no concrete cores, no cross trusses & is no better than your CGI….AND is unsourced, ye gods.

    It’s a bit like FEMA asking us to wish the cores away:

    http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/whatcores.html

    JTK, did you like that reporter announcing WT7′ collapse….before it happened? Tee he he.

    “The Oklahoma building was a vastly different structure”

    I agree. It lost half of its supporting columns & stayed up. Quick look over there!

    “You imply that countless people are sociopaths and that they have all managed to spontaneously join a conspiracy to hide the truth”

    No I didnt, you did. Again, you have built another strawman. I’m seeing a pattern in your methods of argument. Strawmans, red herrings & ridicule.

    “Every single point you raised I have dealt with earlier in this very thread.”

    No you didn’t. You must see yourself as some luke skywalker being approached by the storm troopers & waving your hand. “Nothing to see here…move along”.

    “I provided a link to a web forum where people are discussing this issue with legal rigor. If you have information that is truly convincing, why aren’t people convinced?”

    And I can provide you many forums that disagree with you, are convinced & are still talking about it 10 years after the event, much to your dislike.

    “The sloppy thinking and delusions that Grant exhibits”

    Virtually every paragraph, you attempt to use ridicule as your form of defence & appeal to the viewer to consider mental illness. Is your case so weak that you need to continuously employ this method?

    “Grant! In case you feel the need to repeat your lie about a small amount missing from the facade of building 7, I will remind you that I linked to a photo that disproves your claim.”

    Please provide either the individual photo or the description of which photo you mean. I couldn’t see one there. But hey, it wouldn’t surprise me. Your sucked in by CGI…soooo. Or want me to be.

    “By the way, I have a thought on why truthers don’t take these things to court while still claiming to have vital evidence.”

    An enquiry of this nature would have to be sanctioned by the government, as many governnment departments files & personnel would need to be accessed. You can’t simply march up to court & say I want an enquiry. This is why, people are asking for another INDEPENDENT review. Because only the government can set such a thing up & cut the red tape.

    Now again, I will repeat the question you have so artfully dodged all this time:

    Why are you so determined to defend the official theory? What’s in it for you? What is gained by you converting me to your belief? What is so wrong with another independent enquiry? Why do you desire to supress this 10 years after the event?

  • Grant

    Apologies to all those star war fans, it was Ben Kenobi waving hi hand & using Jedi mind tricks, not luke.

  • JTK

    Oh, the insanity. Why do I need a reason to defend the truth other than the fact that it is the truth? I argue against the lies and sloppy thinking and irrationality of truthers, birthers, and creationists. I do it because they make false claims, like you have.

    Who cares if something is unsourced? You have got to be kidding me. That is like asking who cares if someone is lying to you. You haven’t asked me for a source on anything that I haven’t provided, which makes your hypocrisy accusations humorous. You looked at a photo of massive damage to building seven and now you are lying about what that photo shows. WTClies does not say what you claim. Why do you need to lie? Do you want the names of steel frame buildings that collapsed through fire? Here is a quote from http://www.debunking911.com/firsttime.htm

    “The McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing. The theater was fire protected using drywall and spray on material. A high rise in Philly didn’t collapse after a long fire but firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. Other steel-framed buildings partially collapsed due fires one after only 20 minutes.”

    It is ridiculous to claim it hasn’t happened before when I can name the buildings that collapsed due to fire. It ought to make you think.

    If you believe that the reporters knew building 7 was going to collapse, then they must be part of the conspiracy. That means even more sociopaths! You are seeing them everywhere.

    I have provided links to these things already and you claim I have not. Yet there they are, ready and waiting for you to click on. When you lie like that it will help me convince other truthers how off base they are. The rational ones can read your words and they will ask themselves why you lie, why you have to make bizarre CGI claims, why you insist on relying on unreliable unsourced materials. That isn’t how honest people discuss things, that is how nuts and cranks and liars discuss things. Your behavior does as much or more to convince the other nutters as the actual science does.

    I provided you the link to the photo you asked for. Don’t lie about that too, it won’t fly.

    Why would an inquiry into the slaughter of thousands of Americans need government participation? You obviously don’t understand the legal system. Even nutty truthers can take their case to court. Any of you who had the courage of their convictions would do the same if it was even remotely possible. Do you really believe that birthers have government sanction to bring an issue before the courts? I doubt it, but now you will have to claim that in order to not be taking another position that makes you look like a hypocrite. Smarten up. What red tape is there to press murder charges? Why not charge the reporter that announced that building 7 was going to collapse, which by the way was readily apparent to anyone watching television at the time. Were you old enough to watch television?

    Your paranoid insistence I have some kind of reason for attacking lies and misrepresentations is amazingly nuts. As usual the few truthers that still exist are crazy.

    Thanks for playing, wacko. Please never stop taking your meds. You might wind up shooting politicians.

    Going around and around with a liar like you serves little purpose if you won’t accept that the photos that prove you wrong exist. Anything I give you as evidence you will claim is CGI or fake or a massive government plot. You are completely nuts and off your rocker just like a creationist. You are not and have never been a skeptic, not with that kind of attitude toward evidence.

    Seek help.

  • Grant

    “Why do I need a reason to defend the truth other than the fact that it is the truth?”

    Sounds like a creationist to me. What is your issue with another independent enquiry? So you see yourself as a defender of the truth? How do you feel about the resulting war in Iraq & Afghanistan?

    “You haven’t asked me for a source on anything that I haven’t provided”

    No, you have just provided links that are by no one in particular, same thing.

    “You looked at a photo of massive damage to building seven and now you are lying about what that photo shows”

    Photo’s 1 & 3 ( is it that hard to name them?) clearly shows THE BACK of WT7, not the side that has been hit, are living on planet delusion? This is the “truth” you wish to convey?

    “It is ridiculous to claim it hasn’t happened before when I can name the buildings that collapsed due to fire”

    No you havn’t. None are skyscrapers. Please provide evidence of a pancake collapse of a sky scraper that has caught on fire.

    “If you believe that the reporters knew building 7 was going to collapse, then they must be part of the conspiracy.”

    Again, your appeal to ridicule. Do you agree she said it had collapsed BEFORE it collapsed? I never said she was involved, you attempt a strawman yet again.

    “That isn’t how honest people discuss things, that is how nuts and cranks and liars discuss things.”

    Man, your attempts to discredit through ad hom & ridicule is getting a little disturbing.

    “You obviously don’t understand the legal system”

    Please provide evidence of where a legal case has been able to ask for all the email transactions for instance from that time from say, CIA, IRS, Senate & House members, NSA, FBI, Military, Airports, etc etc.

    Please give me the address to planet delusion, sounds like a nice place.

    JTK’s new word of the day….”nuts” & variations.

    “Going around and around with a liar like you serves little purpose if you won’t accept that the photos that prove you wrong exist”

    Dude, help me see this amazing frontal shot of WT7 that you can somehow see.

    “Anything I give you as evidence you will claim is CGI”

    You provided me with an unsourced you tube link, from some right wing plankton & cry when i don’t accept it & I provide you with actual flight data & you are accusing me? Get over yourself.

  • Grant

    Let’s have a look at some of the comments from Larfilms ( your mate), where the you tube video of the pentagon you are demanding we accept comes from. Lets have a look at the other comments on his channel.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/larfilms

    1) your video of a plane hitting the pentagon is the most fake piece of shit video i have seen on youtube. Bitch!
    2) REMOVE the pentagon fake or you will burn in hell forever — – - THIS IS SERIOUS
    3) oh yeah and from seeing all of the comments people leave on your page really tells me how ignorant u are
    4) that video u have of the 911 pentagon crash does not prove flight 77 hit the pentagon
    5) Stupid 9/11 video
    6) ur a fuckin retard for 911 video take it off youtube u stupid jackass
    7) Nice fake Pentagon video, narc.
    We won’t buy into your bullshit. It’s an obvious fake, just like you.
    8) that is the fakest shit i’ve seen in my life….SNES quality graphics there
    9) My point, exactly, and this was a response to Larfilm or should it be Lairsfilm comments “this should put to rest all the conspiracy theorists and fake mongerers.” The image is fake.
    10) Oh my God, the plane was actually a Phillips CDi!

    There is pages & pages of pretty much the same thing. In fact there is NO ONE who is taking your position. The one you are getting so outraged about, that we are not accepting some C grade video editing job.

    Propaganda is hard to sell these days eh JTK?

    Wait a sec………. this is rather personal isnt it? This is your channel isnt it? It’s your “I learned at home ” video editing skills isnt it, that you are a little sensitive about, lol.

  • Grant

    JTK, that video is the laughing stock of the internet. Here is more comments from a site who tries like you to pass it off as reality.

    http://911footage.org/videos-pentagon-plane-crash-september-th-new-%5B8Vnu_yiUzls%5D.cfm

    1) this video is s**t. that’s fake and since i knew someone there i hope you die in a f**king fire ass!
    2) Strange how there’s an edit and then the picture suddenly breaks up just before the missle comes into frame!!
    3) This is an animation, and you are a dips**t. Why do people think this is real?
    4) The explosion was bad I have to agree, but what was worse is that the mouse is in the center…
    5) lol nice 1980 video explosions !
    6) CGI!
    7) Why would these tapes have to be classified anyway ?, other than to keep the sheep from seeing the truth. Total inside job.
    8) As fake as this video is. Whatever that was in the video was still WAY smaller than a commercial jet airline.

    So the questions about your video that I’d like to ask are:

    1) Why is the video edited at 22 seconds? Why not one continuous shot?
    2) Why was the guy on his editing suite so dumb as to leave his mouse on the center of the screen?
    3) You have tried several times now to con people into believing that APPALING video edit job & CGI…why? Why so desperate?

  • Grant

    Wow, someone has complained or asked to intervene, as this post is now under moderation.

  • Shelnutt

    So…um…you guys okay? Let me start by saying this; Building 7 was intentionally collapsed (as the owner of the building stated in an interview), 1300 Engineers have reservations about the “official” findings. Many of the “alternative” sites that maybe at one time had good evidence have been hi-jacked (no pun intended) so the whole thing is corrupted. All I have is my evidence, and since I drove past the Pentagon everyday for quite some time, I can assure anyone that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for that size of craft to be flown into that building at that speed and angle…the objects in the path would have been destroyed, yet they were not. All video tapes were indeed confiscated, as told to me by the manager of the Gas Station that was not even 300 yards away. This is not a defense of either of you as much as it is plain fact. Most of the Commission still believes that the Official reasoning behind 9/11 is not entirely true. We can all sit here and argue over who did or didn’t do it…it was done, and we can’t change that. THE LAST THING WE NEED TO DO IS SIT HERE AND RIP EACH OTHER’S HEADS OFF! Is there not enough violence and hatred in the world? Why continue? Find something in this mess you two can agree on and start from there. Try working together (you’ll get more done). Be Well my friends.

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