World Press Freedom Day: Independent Media, Social Justice, and the Vox Populi

Featuring Andrew Kennis

by Kate Horgan
Published: Last Updated on
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The Official Project Censored Show
World Press Freedom Day: Independent Media, Social Justice, and the Vox Populi
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This week on the Project Censored Show, in advance of World Press Freedom Day, Mickey talks to media scholar Andrew Kennis about his recent book, Digital Age Resistance: Journalism, Social Movements, and the Media Dependence Model. They talk about how legacy media frame various social movements, applying the “worthy and unworthy victims” analysis from Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky’s Propaganda Model. Kennis also applies the Media Dependence Model to the ongoing propaganda and censorship occurring around the Israel/Hamas/Gaza events in the Middle East, further arguing why we need a truly independent and free press in the public interest. Then, co-host Eleanor Goldfield joins Mickey to discuss the growing protests occurring around the US in opposition to more aid and weapons being sent to Israel for their attacks on Gaza. They address the media framing and censorship around those First Amendment protected events happening on a rapidly increasing number of America’s college campuses, and revisit the echoes of Kent State as we approach the 54th anniversary of those tragic events on May 4th 1970.

 

Video of the Interview with Eleanor and Mickey

Below is a Rough Transcript of the Interview with Eleanor and Mickey

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Eleanor Goldfield: Thanks everyone for joining us back at the Project Censored Radio Show. We’re very glad right now to bring you another co host segment. I’m Eleanor Goldfield and I’m here with my co host Mickey Huff. Mickey, thank you so much for joining again so that we can hang out and hack our way through some of the propagandized, censored news headlines of the day and talk about, as we do, the news and why it didn’t make the news.

So, Mickey, great to have you with us. We’re gonna be talking about, specifically some of the stuff that’s been going on at college campuses across the United States recently, not only the powerful protests by students, but also the powerful backlash by the police state.

And Mickey, I know that you have some very expert and unique insight into Kent State, which the anniversary of that is May 4th, I believe. Correct?

Mickey Huff: Yes, it is. It’ll be the 54th year commemorating the massacre at Kent State and the echoes of that historically, Eleanor, are pretty profound, particularly just seeing what’s happening right now around the country. I’m once again reminded of the quip from the late great playwright and often curmudgeonly Gore Vidal, who once quipped that we were the United States of amnesia. Of course, that assumes that we learn things and then forget them. And in many cases, like with some of the stories that we’re going to talk about today, Eleanor, people don’t really learn about them in the 1st place and, or if they do, they learn a distorted, skewed or a-historical, non-contextualized, rote version of it that can sort of be distilled into a soundbite, and attached with that is some exceptionalist establishment narrative viewpoint.

It kind of just goes through osmosis of our curriculum and our educational system and our corporate quote news and so forth. So yeah, it’s always good to be here and talk with you back and forth as co hosts. And, I think we actually cover a lot of interesting ground for folks.

So I’m looking forward to talking with you today about some of these intersections of past to present, and if past is prologue, what we’re looking at right now around the country is very grim.

Eleanor Goldfield: Absolutely, Mickey. As one of my favorites, James Baldwin, put it, the past is not past. So, here we go, and folks might be already aware of this because it actually has wandered into some mainstream reporting, but of course, as you pointed out, Mickey, when it is covered, it is covered from an angle that uplifts and upholds the status quo and uplifts the state line, as opposed to the perspective of the students.

You know, you see things like anti Israel protests. It’s never pro Palestine or anti genocide or anti apartheid, right?

Mickey Huff: It’s anti Semitic protesters.

Eleanor Goldfield: Right, exactly. But just to give folks an idea, now, we’re recording this on Friday, April 26th, and I’ve put together a non exhaustive list of schools that I’m aware of, that I’ve seen recently, and here are some of them where these protests against the continued genocide in Gaza have taken place, and with that, some very violent backlash, which we’ll discuss.

USC, that’s the University of Southern California in Los Angeles, Columbia in New York, Yale, the University of Texas at Austin, the University of Minnesota, Princeton, Emory, which is in Atlanta, G.W.

Mickey Huff: Where they’re brutally arresting professors, by the way.

Eleanor Goldfield: Yes, who have been screaming, “I am a professor.”

MIT, Cal Poly, Cornell, Ohio State, Purdue, Harvard, Northwestern, and University of Pennsylvania.

Again, that is a non exhaustive list, and by the time folks are listening to this, there will likely be more schools that will be added to this list because it continues to grow and spread. I’ve already heard about some being organized at places that are planned for this coming week. So this is continuing to spread. And with it, of course, the amount of censorship and, at a lot of these schools, specifically pro Palestinian organizations, I’m thinking predominantly of those SJP, that’s students for justice in Palestine, have been outright banned from existing as student organizations.

And, Mickey, if you can speak to a little bit of what you’ve seen in your tenure as a professor in terms of this crackdown against speech and action for Palestinian rights.

Mickey Huff: Well, it’s pretty extraordinary, Eleanor. And that was a good overview of a lot of the campuses, a cursory one at that.

You know, it doesn’t include a lot of the state colleges. It doesn’t include community colleges. In California we have 115 just community colleges, and there are protests and things happening all over.

There have been speech code violations by administrators. There’s been censorship and crackdowns on some campuses around what faculty and students can even email, which is in accordance with some campus policies. But nevertheless, these rules often are not evenly or equally enforced, if you know what I mean. Certain statements or certain things, you can virtue signal about, but if it actually comes to really saying something profound about something that’s happening that’s affecting a lot of people around the world, not just locally to Gaza. Of course, they’re the most and worst in regards to what’s happening, but that has rippling effects, and through our system. But this is happening all throughout our institutions as you were illustrating.

What I’d like to point out is, my day job profession with one of the many hats I wear has been under assault for a long time. And the great irony is that in the recent years where we’ve seen higher education and academic freedom under assault, and we see, you know, the right is constantly pointing at the bogeyman of DEI and wokeness and so forth. And so a lot of these right wing governors have been passing laws about academic freedom on campus and why students are allowed to protest.

These are the very places, Governor Abbott in Texas, where they’re calling in state troopers to violently arrest people, and at Columbia, the N.Y.P.D. were called in by the head of the university declaring a quote clear and present danger, riffing on that language, that historical language.

The NYPD get there and they’re like, these people are eating lunch and sitting peacefully and having conversations. This is the NYPD assessment, right? And they’re like, we’re not sure. But they’re of course there to do what they need to do. And there’s theater and there’s worse than theater. There’s real violence.

But this is a real chilling effect, and it’s an unfortunate lesson that the state hasn’t learned, but the students and professors and people on campuses in higher education are, we’re all too familiar with this kind of hypocrisy. We’re all too familiar with this kind of selective enforcement of speech or First Amendment rights, and we’re all too familiar historically with just the complete idiocy of anyone thinking that calling in police or National Guard or militarizing peaceful protests and situations, and somehow that’s not going to end poorly.

These people know absolutely nothing at all. And they don’t deserve to be in these positions of power. They’re frankly abusing them, and they’re trashing the entire, not only the entire system of higher ed and academic freedom, but they’re trampling roughshod over the Bill of Rights, particularly the First Amendment.

And I know, Eleanor, you noticed a particularly interesting thing about some of the folks that were coming to crack skulls at the University of Texas. You were remarking about how those folks were nowhere to be found when there were shootings in Texas schools.

Eleanor Goldfield: Yeah, absolutely, Mickey. So first, just to point out that again, there have been violent crackdowns at a bunch of different schools, including Cal Poly Humboldt, which is not that far from where you are, relatively speaking to me.

So at Emory, as you pointed out, professors were being violently arrested. A professor was thrown down on the ground with her head on the concrete as she screamed, “I’m a professor.”

Mickey Huff: Professor of economics, no less.

Eleanor Goldfield: Yeah. I mean, is that better than like a professor of arts?

Mickey Huff: Well, a professor of philosophy was hauled off over, I think it was NYU or Columbia. It’s across the disciplines.

Eleanor Goldfield: I know. A chair. As she was being arrested and dragged away, she said, could you call my department? I’m the chair of the philosophy department.

Mickey Huff: Yeah, I’m being arrested.

Eleanor Goldfield: I mean, it’s funny because it’s so dark.

It’s like, we’re arresting people whose job it is to teach people.

Mickey Huff: The philosophy professor wrote a book about the importance of demonstrations in the first amendment. I mean, you can’t, like forget the Onion. They’re going to go out of business.

Eleanor Goldfield: I actually don’t know what the Onion can do anymore.

Mickey Huff: Yeah, I’m not sure. We should ask the New York Times, right?

Eleanor Goldfield: There you go. But I mean, Emory University, I think this is also a really important connection to make, the planned cop city in Atlanta has some of the strongest connections to what’s known as the deadly exchange, which is an exchange between U.S. police forces and Israeli police and military forces, where they share tactics.

And one of the tactics that was on full display was a man who is clearly marked as a street medic. These are people who are trained in how to help people at protests, if they need water, if they’re going through some kind of medical emergency or issue, and take care of them until emergency services can get there.

So, great people whose job it is to just help others. Cops violently arrested this man, a black man, who’s surprised there. And they pinned him down and they had him zip tied. And once he was zip tied and pinned down, they tased him. And this is all on video. And he was clearly zip tied and being pinned down by multiple police officers.

And this is in Atlanta, where again, this is one of the prime areas that is involved in this deadly exchange between Israel and the United States, and it would be boosted if Cop City were to go through.

And with regards to the University of Texas in Austin, you can also see video of this violent police presence. You know, they are in full Rambo gear, or like RoboCop, you know, they’re not walking in there like Andy Griffith. They look like they’re there to bust skulls, and of course they were. And actually Mike Prysner, who has a podcast called Eyes Left and has been on the show before and is an army veteran, shared a screenshot of these state troopers who had, he pointed out several clips that had a hundred plus rounds of AR 15 bullets. Why would you walk onto a campus with that in your vest?

Mickey Huff: Why would you do that? Go ahead, Eleanor.

Eleanor Goldfield: And these are, and to go back to what you were talking about with the Uvalde school shooting, now this was an elementary school where a gunman just kind of ran roughshod through the entire school while the same law enforcement agency, the Texas state troopers stood outside and did nothing. This was May 24, 2022.

91 of these state troopers were at the school when law enforcement waited over an hour before they breached the classroom where the gunman was. Multiple children died. Now again, this was an elementary school. Now we’re talking about a college when the same law enforcement agency rushes in there again, with these clips of AR 15 weaponry. They’ve got their full riot gear on, and violently attack people who, as the NYPD pointed out, across the nation are just sitting and holding space, protesting peacefully and exercising their First Amendment rights to free speech and free assembly.

And there were actually several, there were a couple of troopers who were found guilty in an internal investigation into the actions of these troopers who were literally just caught on camera, like scrolling through their phones, doing nothing to address the rampage of violence that happened at this elementary school.

So this same law enforcement agency felt that it was okay to allow elementary schoolers to be shot and killed and do nothing about it. And yet a peaceful protest of University of Texas, Austin students decrying a genocide, they need to be met with police brutality. So just watching this, I mean, this is America in two images, right?

And it’s incredibly dark, but I guess I’d have to say I’m losing the ability to be shocked, but never to be disgusted.

Mickey Huff: Well, there’s a lot to take in there, the professors were at Emory, the philosophy professor and economics professor, Carolyn Follin and Noelle McAfee, that we were mentioning earlier and you made a passing reference to Mike Prysner, and the remarking about, well, why in the world would these people have these kinds of full on combat gear? The irony is weirdo. This is the same kind of weapons, the same kind of weaponization, the same kind of tactics that we see in Occupied Palestine, and the, as you mentioned, the IDF, a lot of US law enforcement people go and get training from IDF and one of the iconic photos we’ve seen from recent times here was snipers positioned on the roof at Ohio State University.

Now that goes back to the state of Ohio, and you mentioned Kent State earlier, and I’ve done a lot of work on Kent State over the years with Laurel Krause, the Kent State Truth Tribunal, I did my graduate work on Kent State, and the historiography of Kent State, and how the powers that be, even 54 years on, have worked diligently to bury the massacre at Kent State.

And when you talked about those live ammo clips, right? The AR 15 or the AK, you know, the assault rifle kind of clips. If you go back to Ohio, two days after Nixon called protesters a bunch of bums, Governor Rhodes, who was in a meeting with Nixon previously that week, sent the National Guard to Kent State University, which was a sleepy rural area about an hour south of Cleveland. It’s not a radical hotbed. And that was, of course, where Nixon realized he was losing the narrative, right? He was losing the young people. He didn’t have a lot of the young people anyway, but he was really losing the narrative about the war, and when he said that they were going to escalate it rather than de escalate it, that’s when things blew up again.

You mentioned 1968 earlier, this is 1970, and there were more protests going to grow then. But if you take a look back, not just to 68, but 70, a raft of campuses closed down, graduations were cancelled, commencements were cancelled, all that, because there was a massacre at Kent State and Jackson State, right. A predominantly black college where people were shot and killed and that got less coverage, right? Because that was seen as, well, that’s what happens there. Kent State, right, was quote different because it was these sort of sleepy, you know, white middle class students minding their business being shot. By who?

By people roughly the same age who just came from a violent strike that they were at, right? They were making it violent, right? It’s usually the police that make protests and strikes and things violent. Well, these folks, these young people who may have otherwise been in college themselves, but were in the National Guard, many likely, so they didn’t have to go to Vietnam, right? Another way out.

These kids, what they were, were bused from the Akron Teamster strike with no sleep over to this anti war protest where there were provocateurs and other things going on. We mentioned on the show last time about Terry Norman, the FBI informant and provocateur who fired at Kent State and disappeared.

But nevertheless, these are younger people that aren’t really well trained. And why are they going on Kent State campus with loaded M-1 rifles? That’s the connection here, you don’t show up to that kind of an event with that ammunition if you’re not ready to use it. And that’s the problem is they’re ready to use it.

That’s what they’re trained to do. It’s like calling a firefighter out to go look at a fire and say, well, what are you going to do? The police force is a hammer and every problem is a nail. And it is an absolutely overwhelmingly over the top, inappropriate response to peaceful protests.

And we hear at the Wall Street Journal and in other right leaning media that the rise of anti Semitism on campus is extraordinary. Jews are being threatened left and right. And I’m not going to make light of that. There are some instances where there are very anti Semitic statements and some Jewish students may not feel safe. I am not taking that out of the equation. What I am going to add to the equation, however, is the extraordinary imbalance of the coverage.

The young woman who is a young Zionist who was a reporter for one of the university papers, a student, claims she was stabbed in the eye with a flagpole, and she was on the news and making great hay about it, she was accidentally hit in the eye by someone waving a handheld flag. And again, I am not going to take away from the fact that acts of violence occur and may be occurring in some places.

But for the conservative media to prop these issues up and not show the 34,000 dead people in Gaza and the 77,000 wounded people in Gaza and the 130 reporters plus dead and, not showing prominent author, Ayelet Waldman, married to Michael Chabon in Berkeley, was just arrested right outside of Gaza, marching to the border, calling attention to this issue.

San Francisco Chronicle covered that because it’s a local angle, but the rest of the corporate media don’t want people to know that the protests against what’s happening are not just from, you know, radical pro Hamas, anti Semitic people. It’s preposterous that that narrative is allowed to live out in the wild without much debunking in the establishment media whatsoever, even though it’s complete nonsense. But this is the challenge of the propaganda we face, is we have to dig through all this fog and issue 50 disclaimers before we can even report something that’s true.

Eleanor Goldfield: I know, and I have to say, it makes me very angry, again, as I’ve said on the show before, as a human and a Jew because this actually leads to legitimate anti semitism when you conflate Jews with Israel, and the issue here also is that foundationally, the corporate media doesn’t care about Jews, like, as a people, as a culture. It doesn’t care, because where are you when there is legitimate anti semitism, like, when people are attacked for being Jewish?

Now, here’s the thing, I’m not saying that people haven’t been attacked because they’re Jewish at some kind of event. I don’t know all of the stories here.

But I do know one thing, that Zionists are not always Jews, and Jews are certainly not always Zionists. And Zionists, and I say this as somebody who’s been to several anti Zionist protests where Zionists have showed up, both Jews and non Jews, they are horrifically confrontational. They come to pick a fight.

And then they do the kind of British footballer thing where they fall on the ground if somebody dares to step towards them, like, Oh, God, I’m so injured. And I’ve seen this firsthand. So this is not just anecdotal or hearsay.

And so again, there’s this skewed reporting on this. Where is the media when a Muslim is injured or targeted at a protest? Where is the media when Palestinians, which by the way, don’t tell anyone, but there are Palestinian Jews and Christians and atheists and whatever the else there is.

Mickey Huff: Yeah. God forbid. This is getting really complicated.

Eleanor Goldfield: I know it’s so complicated.

And so there’s this, again, that imbalance that you were talking about, and so we are, as you say, we’re wading through this muck to get to the core, which is these students, which is another problem with the media, they treat these students like they’re idiots, like, oh, these kids don’t know what they’re doing.

Eleanor Goldfield: Actually, they do. They know a lot more than you do. I

Mickey Huff: think that’s part of the problem, is that the students are aware of what’s happening. And the irony of how the institutions that they’re protesting at are supposed to be fostering independent critical thinking. They’re supposed to be looking behind the scenes, challenging power structures, and they’re supposed to be working toward a more just and equitable world, not just for themselves, but for everyone.

And so, you know, colleges and universities have just bandied around casually those kinds of mission statements for an awful long time. And here’s people practicing those, putting them into practice, taking the very things they learn in classes by heretics like me, right? Taking into account the things they learn about: history and civic engagement and how to really navigate the propagandistic media ecosystems we have in order to try to really understand what’s happening.

We try to teach students how to deconstruct these meanings and to be a part of their lives and be part of their communities and to stand up when they think something’s wrong and speak out, lo and behold, the students are listening sometimes, right?

Eleanor Goldfield: And I think that’s also really, what you highlighted is really powerful. It scares the establishment because, just like when we hear about the Black Panthers, if we do, oftentimes it’s just like the image of the Black Panthers with guns, like, Oh, there were just violent thugs. But what was very disturbing to the establishment is all of the political education that was going on thanks to the Black Panthers.

Mickey Huff: That’s right. And their 10 point program.

Eleanor Goldfield: Right. And so here’s what I’ve seen. I’ve seen images from campuses where you have these students sitting at these encampments reading Edward Said, and reading, you know, the 100 year war on Palestine, and reading things that contextualize what’s going on far before October 7th, and really let people know the larger picture.

And that is really, really scary to the establishment because then you start to again realize that, okay, Zionism is not Judaism and Zionism is a colonialist construct. It is a white supremacist ideology. And oh my gosh, what do we do if the bulk of people from 18 to 22 really realize that? Oh, that’s really going to be disastrous. So we have to clamp down on this. And the only way that the United States knows how to push back against something like this is to push back violently.

Mickey Huff: And look, that’s right. And what we’ve seen, and we mentioned before, just more disclaimers, right? Any listener to this program knows that I’m not shy about taking on left wing censorship or left wing litmus testing, and I’m not into the left wing circular firing squad model of dealing with disagreements.

So, that said, it’s again, interesting to me and entirely a 101 sort of primer in hypocrisy that the far right has been trying to attack academic freedom, tried to shut down what’s being taught on campuses, and now when they can’t totally control everything that’s going on on campuses, the free speech warriors on the right, Tom Cotton, Josh Halley are calling to bring in the National Guard.

They’re literally saying to bring the military. You want to shut somebody up? Punch them in the mouth. Arrest them, expel them, ruin their careers before they’re started, scare the ever living hell out of them, however you can, so that they learn young and they learn well, not to speak out against the status quo, not to speak up for justice, to keep their mouths shut or else they’re not going to get jobs and they’re not going to have enjoyable lives.

And again, there is nothing more anti-Intellectual and nothing more pro-censorious than having a militarized response to intimidate, arrest and commit acts of violence on young peaceful protesters. Period. Full stop.

It was a total unmitigated disaster and crime at Kent State. And what we’re seeing unfold here today is eerily similar, and I hope that people really start to realize the lessons of the past such that we do not repeat such absolutely foolish and unnecessary acts of violence against an entire generation of people really speaking out at this moment in history about the unethical, illegal and horrendous acts that are taking place, not just across the Middle East, but across the world, often with the backing of U.S. taxpayer money and weaponry.

Eleanor Goldfield: Absolutely, Mickey, very well put. And I’m curious with your expertise on the subject to kind of make that comparison, looking at where we were before Kent State happened, and also that people after Kent State happened, when they were polled across the country, thought that it was okay what happened, largely. And today we see a lot of people, particularly those who watch MSNBC or CNN and think that what’s happening in Gaza is just the cost of war.

What do you think the likelihood is that we would see another Kent State happen, and even if not, what do you think the likelihood of these kind of college protests, just like we saw back in the late 60s and early 70s, can help create the political environment that makes this war untenable, that made Vietnam untenable, or that could potentially make this genocide untenable for the U.S. government?

Mickey Huff: Well, absolutely great framing and contextualization for the conversation that we’re having and for what’s going on and for the conversation that I wish we saw more of in the press. The corporate media is not going to do that. It’s just, it’s too sensational. Covering protests is sensational. It’s a clash, right? And the protesters are violent and unruly, and the police are restoring law and order. It’s eerie how similar the language is now as it was 50 some years ago and the tactics and the playbook and all of it, right?

I hope and think, however, that some of the consciousness of our society has moved past that, a degree to which that we are capable of seeing why the response to what’s happening right now on campuses is not the proper one, it’s not the right one, and it’s not a productive one.

You saw what happened at Columbia. They went in and arrested people and removed people and what happened? Whoop! It just propped back up. It’s like a game of whack a mole. And the state, the more that happens, the more prone the state is to violence. And this is what’s scary about what’s happening right now, is that any of these things could unfold, even before this program airs.

There could be provocateurs. We know they’re usually are right. So I think the situation now is very volatile. But what it also suggests, another lesson is that if we would take this opportunity to listen to what the protesters are discussing and discover that a vast majority of them are peaceful. I know there are some radical positions that, considered radical by the right, some of the organizations that have language that talks about how Israel doesn’t have a right to exist and so on. And that language really ruffles establishment feathers.

But I think that this is the opportunity to have the discussions and if we can’t have impassioned, but still intellectually sober dialogue that’s constructive, not destructive at the very institutions that are designed to teach people how to get through these things and understand them. This is why I mentioned earlier that, you know, my whole profession is under attack. All these institutions are under attack. It’s not just literally the students that are doing it, and it is very literally, of course, the people on the ground in Gaza. But metaphorically, we’re destroying our own means by which to civilly mitigate these differences.

These actions are making it more likely that we’ll become an authoritarian society, not a more democratic one. What’s happening right now in the way that the Democrats, not just Republicans are handling these situations is making it more likely, Eleanor, that we’re going to see something even more tragic happen in coming weeks, and that’s why I really hope people take a moment to think about some of the things, not just that we’re talking about, but to go look into the stories that we’re bringing to attention.

Go look at different media. Look at the independent media. Don’t just look at the corporate media. Look at what the independent media is saying about this.

May 3rd is World Press Freedom Day, and that was proclaimed by the UN General Assembly in December of 1993. And the reason we do this is we need to celebrate, and this is right from the UN, we celebrate the fundamental principles of press freedom.

We have to access the state of press freedom throughout the world. We have to assess it and see where we are. We have to defend media from attacks on their independence and pay tribute to journalists who have lost their lives in the line of duty, and I will add, or have pretty much been disappeared down the memory hole, like Julian Assange.

And as we approach Press Freedom Day, World Press Freedom Day, we have to remember that it’s the independent media that is often the grassroots voice of the people. It is often the independent press that is operating on ethical standards and principles, and it is the independent press that is reporting in the public interest, not the corporate media.

And if people diversify their news media diets more and get more information from independent outlets as we approach World Press Freedom Day, we really need to think about how to reform and change our media system and really push to have better news reporting, more accurate reporting, more constructive dialogue and more solutions based framing around the challenges we face.

We can use news and media to make a positive difference and we can use our first amendment rights to try to move the needle on important conversations. Part of that means we have to resist this violence and resist this censorship and violence against protesters is a form of censorship.

Eleanor Goldfield: Very well put, Mickey. And we could spend the next several hours digging deeper into this, but I think that was a powerful way to wrap up this conversation.

Thank you so much. I’m glad that we were able to sit down and dig into this very important issue of censorship and indeed propaganda, which we’ve covered before. They go hand in hand.

And people can also follow more about what’s going on, palestine Action US has listed several of these actions that are happening at universities across the country. Also SJP, as I mentioned, students for justice in Palestine, you could check out their work as well. And of course, we talk about this a lot on project censored. So check out projectcensored.org for more, not just coverage of this, but a deeper dive with regards to articles and other links to things like that.

Mickey, thanks again for taking the time to sit down and dig into this.

Mickey Huff: Eleanor, it’s always great to have a co host to co host talk about the state of the free press and things happening in the world. So always appreciate it. And certainly thank all of our listeners.

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